@ktbos 

 

"Ghost" network you see is probably Deco WiFi backhaul: what Deco units use to communicate with each other. It appears as WiFi network with hidden SSID, and because M5 is dual-band (not tri-band) that hidden network will take the same WiFi channel M5 broadcasts on for WiFi devices connected to Deco mesh.

Simply speaking: that is unlikely the cause of your Deco mesh issues, and you can just ignore that "ghost" network.

 

>if anyone has further advice for what else to check or to try, I'd love to hear it

 

For WiFi mesh to work its nodes must be properly deployed, and signal from the nodes must be strong enough for devices conected to them. If you have large house, you might need more WiFi nodes for good coverage. I'll give you some recommendations, up to you which you want to try.

 

Starting with Deco mesh nodes deployment. Check what you see for each Satellite Deco in its Signal Source, in Deco app. You should expect to see something like this:

 

 

If on any of Satellite Deco you see less than 2 blue bars, red/yellow bars or don't see 5GHz,- that means this Satellite Deco is too far from Deco it is connected to.

 

You said you run your Deco mesh with 5GHz. Have you turned off 2.4GHz on Main Network? If not, do that:

 

 

 

You said you tried WiFi analyzer to map signal at your house - that is great. I would suggest you try different one: WiFiMan from Ubiquiti. Also, before taking the WiFi signal reading, turn WiFi off and then on at device on which you run WiFi analyzer. This is to get fresh reading at that location, and not stale data.

 

>3 feet from a Deco and the strength was only as good as -40.  I'd expect better for being so close

 

Having -40dBm near M5 is good, not sure how much stronger signal you have expected. I checked and I see the same with my M5. Refer to this:

 

 

Anything up to -60dBm is really good WiFi signal coming from nearby Deco M5 unit.

 

 

When it comes to WiFi interference, I would rather look at the list of WiFi networks and channels they occupy, this is an example from WiFiMan at my house:

 

 

As you can see from it, Deco takes 5GHz and 2.4GHz channels that do not conflict with my neighbours. Also, signal from all other networks but one is too weak according to this picture, to cause any meanigful interference.

 

 

>When that happens on an iOS device, it will just silently fail.  When it happens on an Android device, it will show something like connection refused. 

 

This one I can't explain, but it may be this is your router doing, not Deco mesh. Next time it happens, bounce dd-wrt router without doing anything with Deco mesh: if suddenly your devices can get connection after router restart, you will know it is not Deco mesh issue.

@Alexandre. thanks for the thorough reply.  I really appreciate you getting through my long post with all the info. 

 

All of my Deco are wired.  I don't have any that are getting their signal from another Deco.  The two Decos other than the "main" both have "Ethernet" next to Signal Source.  So that rules out the issue of coverage from Deco to Deco.  And as I stated original post, I've got good coverage throughout the house according to the devices.  The weakest signal I get from the Deco network is 2 out of 4 on an Android device and 2 out of 3 on an iOS device.  (And that's a big improvement over the prior non-mesh arrangement I had and I don't have to worry about selecting a different network when I move around the house like I did before the mesh network.) 

 

I appreciate your explanation about the WiFi backhaul and where that "ghost" network is coming from.  That's really interesting and I had no idea.  Does the fact that I don't use WiFi for backhaul mean that those signals can be turned off?  Or that they should be automatically turned off since they aren't used?  It seems like less network noise in the air can only be a good thing for all devices. 

 

I do have some older devices that need the 2.4Ghz network.  I could try disabling that network for the time being to see if it improves the issue with the throughput just as a test but that's not a solution for me.  I thought about forcing everything to just use the 2.4Ghz network but of course I have devices that take advantage of the 5Ghz that I don't want to slow down unnecessarily. 

 

I've just been playing around with WiFiMan.  It's got some stuff that NetSpot doesn't have although I'm not an expert on either so maybe they both have it all.  But one thing I really liked about NetSpot was the Timeline feature where you could see strength over time.  I find that really helpful.  And that helps show the odd behavior with the WiFi backhaul that doesn't show on the static view. 

 

I thought signal strength should be better than -20dBm if I was right at the access point.  Maybe that's unreasonable.  I know that the signal strength I'm getting at the Deco is plenty but the point was that if it isn't perfect at the unit, it's reasonable to expect it to taper off as you get a realistic distance away.  Although as I wrote above, my devices usually get a good signal throughout the house. 

 

Thanks for the screenshot showing the WiFiMan data for your house.  But I reach a different conclusion than you: I don't think your Deco avoided a crowded 5Ghz band - I think it chose the same one it did for me and ignored any potential crowding.  In your case, the starting band seems to be the least crowded but in my case it is where most of my neighbors are.  (And lucky that you don't appear to have any neighbors using a 5Ghz band!) 

 

As for the connection refused problem, doesn't that come from the access point, i.e. the Deco and not the router?  I.e. it's saying that the WiFi connection was refused not a connection to the Internet.  The error is on the WiFi connection pane, not like in a web browser or another app.  So I don't think my router even gets to see the attempt and therefore, rebooting the router is unlikely to help. 

 

So updating my questions:

 

Is there a way to kill off the WiFi backhaul to ensure that it is not causing any of the problems I'm seeing?  Or at the very least to clean up a cluttered 5Ghz space? 

 

Can I get the Deco to use an uncluttered part of the 5Ghz spectrum rather than using the only part of the 5Ghz spectrum that is otherwise already very cluttered? 

 

Any other issues that I should investigate? 

@ktbos 

 

As you tell more about your home Deco mesh setup, I find it very similar to mine. I run Deco mesh in Access Point mode. All my Deco M5 are wired. I have been running Deco mesh for just over a year.

The only difference: I am happy with how Deco mesh performs in my house and have not seen problems you described. 

 

How about you change Deco WiFi settings to what I did? I set Main Network as 5GHz only, enabled Guest Network and set it as 2.4GHz only. I connected to Guest Network all my WiFi devices that can't use 5GHz and also those that do not need speedier WiFi. I use Main Network for devices such as tablets and smartphones only.

 

These are my WiFi settings in Deco app:

 

 

Also note WPA2-PSK under Security - make sure it is set that way in your settings, too. Some modern smartphones and tablets might not like WPA only.

 

After you've done that, I'll appreciate if you would go to a location in your home where your tablet or smartphone has persistent issues with Deco mesh, turn off/on WiFi on device with WiFiMan, scan the environment from there and share screenshot of WiFi networks, that same page I did, with SSID, Channels and Signal Strength. 

 

---------------

Deco mesh keeps WiFi backhaul enabled even when units are wired. It is idle, but still there. If you think about it, that makes sense: unplug Ethernet cable from M5 and it should promptly connect wirelessly. 

You can't turn off Deco WiFi backhaul broadcasting.

 

--------------

The signal strength I am getting on smartphone staying 3 feet from M5 is -40dBm. Mind you, M5 is fanless compact WiFi node, probably some performance is sacrificed for size and form factor.

I also have Deco M9 Plus, which is sort of big brother for M5, with M9 I am getting -30dBm staying 3 feet away from it.

 

--------------

You can't manually change WiFi channel with Deco mesh. You can force Deco rescan the environment to try finding less congested channel. You can do that by either restarting Deco mesh or by running Network Optimization from Deco app. In both cases it'll be Deco that will decide what channel to use.

 

--------------

>Any other issues that I should investigate? 

 

The biggest difference between your and mine Deco mesh is routers we are using. The rest of setup is almost identical and will be completely identical when you change WiFi Settings in your Deco mesh to mirror mine.

As I said before, WiFi devices I have experience no issues with my Deco mesh. My household has Android smartphones and Microsoft Surface Pro tablets.

 

Google for "connection refused" in regard to Android smartphones, and note all different issues which could trigger that error message. Some of them will be related to router, check if any applicable to yours.

I would still recommend bouncing the router alone, as a test, to see if suddenly "connection refused" and "full-signal-strength-but-zero-throughput" issues disappear for a while. 

@ktbos 

 

One more thing: I have "MAC Address Randomization" turned off for Deco mesh SSID on all smartphones in my household. Not sure if it makes any difference, but it might and for home WiFi that feature is not necessary.

@Alexandre. thanks again for your thoughts on this.  And it's good to know that you are running your Deco mesh successfully in Access Point mode and are all wired.  That does help reduce the possible issues I'm having. 

 

However, the key difference between us is the clutter in the 5Ghz band that both of our Deco systems are using.  In the lower end of the 5Ghz, I have many neighbors with their networks including one named ORBI that are pretty strong in interference.  (I live in a suburban location with single family homes separated by 20 to 80 feet.)  You have no 5Ghz competition whatsoever.  If I could run around to all of my neighbors and have them turn off their WiFi for a day, that'd be really helpful in diagnosing my problem!  Ha! 

 

I don't see the benefit in messing around with the 2.4Ghz signal - I don't see how that'd be worse interference for throughput than the competing 5Ghz signals in my neighborhood.  And it would mean a fair amount of disruption to the devices we have.  (Some of those old 2.4Ghz only devices don't handle change well.) 

 

Good question about the Security setting.  I do indeed have it set to WPA2-PSK [AES]. 

 

That's good advice about turning off the private MAC address on iOS - I have done that now.  There's no difference for that phone.  And my Android device that I have been using for the testing doesn't have that option since it is Android 8.  Which means that isn't a factor in my problem. 

 

I disagree about the benefit of keeping the WiFi backhaul on even when everything is wired.  That's extra work for the "radio" in the Deco adding extra clutter in the air and a disruption in a wired setup has a problem is really rare.  If I did at some point unplug the wire, I'd expect it to take maybe half a minute to spark up the WiFi backhaul and reorient to the new configuration.  So if that's true that TP-Link made it so the WiFi backhaul is always on, that's just dumb. 

 

It's likewise dumb that my Deco system is picking the cluttered part of the spectrum to work in and that I can't either guide it toward a better area or that I can't just manually set the channel.  The purported reason that TP-Link doesn't allow manual selection is based on the Deco knowing what is best but when you look at the cluttered space for my neighborhood, you can see that the Deco is failing to choose wisely. 

 

I did some more testing this morning.  First, here's a lame sketch of my house.  The Deco locations are shown in orange and are in the basement, family room, and attic.  The numbered locations correspond to the discussion following the image. 

Number 1 is in the master bedroom and where I took the first set of test data.  Number 2 is in the family room when I moved the Android tablet right next to one of the Deco units.  Below is the screenshot from NetSpot showing the first half when I was in location #1 and then moved to location #2.  And note that I have the "ghost" networks not displayed in these NetSpot screenshots so that it doesn't confuse the issue. 

 

You can see that in location #1, the signal strength is only about -70 and that it is about as strong as my next door neighbor's network (from the MAC it appears they have a Netgear network).  Their house is four times as far away from location #1 as my family room Deco and the path from their access point to my bedroom requires 2 exterior walls while the path from my family room Deco to my bedroom requires only a single ceiling/floor.  Here is the WiFiMan speed test from location #1. 

 

That's pretty poor but the reality is worse since it doesn't show the frequent drops in connection that really occur.  Here is the same speedtest after I moved to right next to the family room Deco.

 

It's way better and the connection was stable.  Then I moved to the bathroom above the family room.  That's location #3 on the diagram.  Here is the NetSpot graph for that location. 

 

The interesting thing about this location is that there is less interference from neighbors - at least at this snapshot; I've seen times in this location where there is more clutter than this time.  The two networks with the best signal are the Deco from the attic (lilac color) and the Deco from the family room (light blue).  And which network is better varies.  Most of the time it is the blue, but sometimes the lilac comes close.  Here is the speed test for location #3. 

 

Location #3 is the location that gives me the most trouble.  It is the location where I have seen the "connection refused" problem.  And now I'm wondering if the problem is that the device is trying to choose between the two Deco units so it goes from one Deco to the other and then back again.  And at some point, it could be that it is appearing to be connected twice and that's what causes the connection refused. 

 

So in the end, maybe my main problem is simply poor signal strength from the Deco units.  My devices show a good amount of "bars" but in actuality, the signal may not be as strong as it needs to be.  Either to beat out the neighbors' networks or to establish a solid connection even from one Deco to another. 

 

So, @Alexandre. what is the signal strength for you in the weakest part of your house and what do you get for a speed test result in that location? 

@ktbos 

 

I've noticed that in all your screenshots from WiFiMan your HUAWEI device is using Channel 9. That means, your device was running on 2.4GHz band at the time of speed tests.

Results you are getting on 2.4GHz are awful, but they have nothing to do with congestion on WiFi 5GHz. 

 

I ran speed test at my house as you asked, but I had a problem at first. In my house, I can't find a place with weak WiFi signal from Deco mesh. It is the point of properly deployed mesh to provide good WiFi coverage around the property. I put efforts a year ago in doing just that, and WiFi analyzer was a great help. I had to double number of Deco units in my house from original two to current four, to get good 5GHz WiFi coverage everywhere.

 

Then, I realized that I can overcome that challenge by powering off Satellite M5 nearest to where I am with my smartphone, connecting smartphone to Satellite M5 further away and that will get me weak enough WiFi connection to make meaningful comparison with your tests.

 

I also ran second speed test with nearby Satellite M5 powered on and smartphone connected to it, to have results when signal is good.

 

Before sharing these results, I want to mention that I have asymmetrical cable Internet: gigabit down, 30 Mbps up. 

 

Speed Test 1.

 

Smartphone is 35 feet away from wired Satellite M5 it is connected to. There are two walls between smartphone and M5. These are walls made of wood, drywall and cardboad, not concrete or bricks, but they still count as obstacles.

 

 

Speed Test 2.

 

Smartpone is at the same place, but it is connected to nearby wired Satellite M5. The distance to that M5 is 15 feet, and it is in direct line of sight. 

 

@Alexandre. 

 

Wow, I missed that the speedtests were done on channel 9 - good catch.  But the interesting thing, then, is that the tablet had given up on the 5Ghz network at that point and fell back to the 2.4Ghz one.  So the congestion / signal strength was so bad, it gave up on it. 

 

Thanks for the tests.  That confirms what we've been discussing - that at a distance, your signal strength is poor (-74 dBm) but that you still get decent throughput.  When I get down to that signal strength, I get pretty much zero throughput and the device bails on the 5Ghz altogether. 

 

The other interesting comment in your message is that you ended up increasing the Deco count to 4.  I'm at 3 in a fairly large house - the footprint is small but including the basement and 1 room in the attic, we have 4 levels of living.  The thought was that I didn't need a Deco on the second floor since I had one above it in the attic and one below it in the family room.  (see the lame diagram in the prior post)  But based on your comment and the problems I'm having, I'm thinking that might be the best solution. 

 

To test this out, I moved the basement Deco (which happens to be the "Main" Deco) into the master bedroom at location #1 in the diagram.  Then I did another Optimize to see if it wanted a change.  It said it was making a change but of course the Deco app doesn't say what it is changing and in the end, all the channels remained the same. 

 

Then I repeated the tests for location #1 and #3.  As expected, the throughput now at location #1 was fantastic.  I got 175.8 Mbps and it was on channel 44.  I tested Google and YouTube and they worked as though I was on a wired connection.  Perfect. 

 

Then I went to location #3 which is 25 feet away with a wall and a closed door between .  Signal strength plummeted and it couldn't hold the connection to the 5Ghz band.  So even if I were to add a Deco to the 2nd floor in the master bedroom that wouldn't handle coverage throughout the 2nd floor. 

 

I'd love to run my tests the same way you did - in a environment free of competing WiFi signals.  But I can't have my neighbors turn off all of theirs and I can't tell the Deco to try a different channel range. 

 

So it does seem to me that the main problem is that I have WiFi competition from neighbors.  And that in parts of my house that are 20 feet away from a Deco, I get better signal strength from my neighbor's WiFi network which is at least 80 feet away. 

 

Which brings me back to my original main question: How can I get the Deco to change channels either manually or having it avoid the clutter on its own?  I recognize that this is a question for @TP-Link because in other posts they have been adamant that the Deco does the right thing on its own.  But it seems clear to me that it isn't in this case.  And if the Deco can't move to an uncluttered range either manually or on its own and I get really bad throughput with even moderate signal strength, then I think the Deco system needs to go and be replaced by something that has stronger signals and/or makes a better channel selection or allows a manual change. 

 

Thanks again for all your help @Alexandre. .  I think at this point I need @TP-Link to weigh in on why the Deco isn't choosing the uncluttered space on its own and if there will ever be firmware that will make it so it does find the better space or allow me to manually change the channel.  

@TP-Link_Deco now that I have settled on the core problem I'm having, this seems similar to another thread that is describing sort of the same thing. 

 Possibility to change WiFi channels

 

With so much attention on the inability to manually choose a channel and the poor behavior to choose a channel on its own, why not simply add it as a feature in the app!?