Are all 4x4 AP antenna configurations useless and 2x2 performs actually exactly the same?

Are all 4x4 AP antenna configurations useless and 2x2 performs actually exactly the same?

Are all 4x4 AP antenna configurations useless and 2x2 performs actually exactly the same?
Are all 4x4 AP antenna configurations useless and 2x2 performs actually exactly the same?
2024-11-07 17:28:10 - last edited 2024-12-20 09:06:36

After years of experimenting and trying to find ANY information (as a matter of fact there is no information on this topic in the entire internet), its pretty clear to me, that spatial streams of WiFi 5 and 6 are simply not working for multi user configurations. 

 

Even if the clients are perfectly compatible with DL-MU-MIMO and there is no interference and other signals nearby, its impossible to get more spatial streams then the smallest client has. So normally you never exceed 2 streams. 


Which means, in all tests, 4x4 APs achieved the _exact_ same performance as the smaller 2x2 counterpart. As soon as more then 1 client was active in the cell, the performance degraded.


The only case where 4x4 really works is with a 4x4 client, and because there is not a single client device with 4x4 antennas, only a wireless link would actually benefit from 4x4. As soon as a 2x2 client joins the same network, the 4x4 link is also degraded.

 

It seems spatial streams are nothing more than just another layer of QAM and therefore have the same limitations. 

 

 

Or did anyone in this forum ever achieve a higher total bandwidth with a 4x4 AP compared to an 2x2 AP? Would be interesting, it seems that this is literally impossible but I stand corrected. Even talking to an Cisco engineer lately he couldnt deny my observerations (but didnt want to go into the detail as well...)

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Re:Are all 4x4 AP antenna configurations useless and 2x2 performs actually exactly the same?-Solution
2024-11-08 12:52:47 - last edited 2024-12-20 09:06:36
Im working in the field of wireless networks over different kind of radios for more than 20 years, so of course I know all that simple stuff what to look for. Ive tested at least 30 different APs and devices with a wide range of vendors for the modems. Even under LAB-conditions (no reflections, no interference, "free field") it was not possible to achieve any performance gain. To go more into detail: the 4x4 AP should share one RU (resource unit) with two 2x2 devices in MU-MIMO mode. That is the definition in IEEE 802.11ax. But actually no matter what conditions, there are always 2 RU allocated and therefore the AP degrades to 2x2 mode. Which means that there is an error in the implementation on AP side.
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Re:Are all 4x4 AP antenna configurations useless and 2x2 performs actually exactly the same?
2024-11-08 09:22:16 - last edited 2024-11-08 12:48:27

Hi  @RobertMEF 

 

Thank you for sharing your extensive experimentation and observations.

Firstly, it's important to note that while it may seem that spatial streams are not working as expected in multi-user configurations, there could be several factors at play. For one, even if clients are compatible with DL-MU-MIMO, there could be other environmental factors or settings that are impacting the performance. Just because there is no visible interference nearby doesn't necessarily mean there aren't other issues affecting the signal.

 

Regarding the performance degradation when multiple clients are active, this is not uncommon as the network resources are shared among the connected devices. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that the spatial streams are not working as intended. As for the comparison between 4x4 and 2x2 APs, in an ideal scenario, a 4x4 AP should offer better performance and higher total bandwidth. But in real-world scenarios, as you've experienced, it may not always be the case due to various factors such as client capabilities, network congestion, and interference. It's also possible that there could be some configuration or optimization that you haven't tried yet that might improve the performance.

Have you checked for firmware updates for your devices? Sometimes, new firmware can address performance issues and improve the functionality of the network.

 

In conclusion, while it's understandable that you're frustrated with the results of your experiments, it's important to consider all possible factors and continue to explore different solutions to optimize your network performance. If you haven't already, you might also want to reach out to our technical support team directly for more in-depth troubleshooting and advice. 😊

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Re:Are all 4x4 AP antenna configurations useless and 2x2 performs actually exactly the same?-Solution
2024-11-08 12:52:47 - last edited 2024-12-20 09:06:36
Im working in the field of wireless networks over different kind of radios for more than 20 years, so of course I know all that simple stuff what to look for. Ive tested at least 30 different APs and devices with a wide range of vendors for the modems. Even under LAB-conditions (no reflections, no interference, "free field") it was not possible to achieve any performance gain. To go more into detail: the 4x4 AP should share one RU (resource unit) with two 2x2 devices in MU-MIMO mode. That is the definition in IEEE 802.11ax. But actually no matter what conditions, there are always 2 RU allocated and therefore the AP degrades to 2x2 mode. Which means that there is an error in the implementation on AP side.
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Re:Are all 4x4 AP antenna configurations useless and 2x2 performs actually exactly the same?
2 weeks ago - last edited 2 weeks ago

  @RobertMEF I'm currently looking to upgrade the wireless access points (ceiling mounted) in my home and am going through the dilema of trying to decide between a 2x2x2 AP and a 4x4x4 AP.  I see a lot of comments online about how great it is to have more spatial streams, but have been wondering if spending more to get more is really worth it, or if more spatial streams is better is more of a marketing gimmick.  I found your comments on this thread enlightening, but would like to pose the question to you, based on my environment. 

 

Living in a neighborhood of single-family homes, the 2.4GHz and 5GHz bands are fairly congested; the 6GHz band is untouched.

 

For my network, the maximum number of devices that I would have connected to a single AP at a time is:

     2.4GHz:     20 (mainly light switches, but also includes wireless security cameras streaming to wired NAS)

     5GHz:     5 (includes FireTV cubes, Amazon Echos, tablets, smartphones)

     6GHz:     3 (would include Amazon Echos, tablets, and smartphones)

                Note:  The APs that I'm currently looking at would utilize 6GHz for mesh links.  I will have one AP in my garage that would need to connect via mesh to the AP in an office.  The AP in the office would also need to support 6GHz devices.  If I go with a 2x2x2 AP, would the APs using the 6GHz band for the mesh connection negate the use of this band to support 6GHz clients?

 

A lot of what I read online indicates that a 4x4 AP can handle multiple 1x1 or 2x2 devices simultaneously with greater bandwidth to each device, so would think that that is better, since I have no clue as to how chatty all of my devices are.  But, I would appreciate your opinion.  Is there any benefit to gain from going 4x4 and would that gain be worth the increased investment?  Note:  I don't need everything to have max bandwidth; I just want everything to have a comfortable 'enough' bandwidth so that it works well.  

 

Thank you,

 

Stacy

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Re:Are all 4x4 AP antenna configurations useless and 2x2 performs actually exactly the same?
2 weeks ago

  @Lee21 

AP to AP connection is the ONLY usecase where 4x4 really shines and brings a benefit. After a lot of testing it is proven that 4x4 MU-MIMO does not work, there is currently no usecase in which it can outperform the old OFDMA. That is purely to the fact, that MU-MIMO must sacrifice QAM symbols in order to work. There is only soo little room for amplitude/phase modulation and either you use it for 4096 QAM + OFDMA or you use it for 512QAM + MU-MIMO. 

4x4 as a backhaul is the only configuration where it truely doubles the performance because as all antennas are in the same spot, you do not need to reduce the QAM symbols to get multiple spatial stream.

 

So yes, if you really cannot wire up the APs 4x4 is the way to go for you. But you need an entire antenna-block for every AP-AP connection. So for this you should actually go for an AP where you can split the 5 GHZ radio into 2x 4x4, because 5GHz is better for backhaul than 6Ghz just because how much distance it can cover. But you should also consider using directional APs to get more antenna-gain. Remember, every wall halfes the bandwidth of the backhaul. In the best case you could get up 2.5 GBit (in the same room 160Mhz 6GHz), but after one wall its down to 1gbit and after the next wall its like 400mbit or so.

 

 

But for your clients it absolutely does not matter, your clients dont put any strain on the WiFi in the first place. You could easily hook up 30 or more FireTVs to a 2x2 AP as the bandwidth is soo low for Video-Streaming, even for 4k.

And it is extensivly tested, that there is no benefit at all for a 4x4 AP compared to a 2x2 AP even for high clients counts. The WiFi standard lacks a lot of what 5G can do. In 5G this is actually working, but the technology of 5G is 10fold better compared to WiFi6 or 7.

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Re:Are all 4x4 AP antenna configurations useless and 2x2 performs actually exactly the same?
2 weeks ago

  @RobertMEF:  your response / information is, by far, the best I've seen and I really appreciate your taking the time to explain it!  Is it ok with you if I post your comments in other forums?...I'll give you credit.

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Re:Are all 4x4 AP antenna configurations useless and 2x2 performs actually exactly the same?
2 weeks ago
I mean the quality of my posting is not really great, there is a lot to improve so no credit needed :D its more important that this topic gets more attention, as every vendro is spreading the misbelief of double the antennas equals double the cell-performance. You can actually gain a lot more with 2 dedicated 2x2 APs than any 4x4 AP could ever achieve. But maybe in the future we see stark improvements in this regard, when the MU-MIMO matrix can actually work without compromising the amount of QAM symbols. So I would stay open for this topic in the future. Im currently in touch with multiple members of the WiFi Alliance and lets see if there is a chance to get something into the WiFi 8 standard.
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